The Iraqi Torturings.

Discussion:

(too old to reply)

Sally Atticum

2004-05-08 17:16:04 UTC

I've been very disturbed by this. I want to look for some other articles, but
wanted to throw this out there, This is from AOL's cover story:

England was described as a kind young woman who loves athletics and the
outdoors and is unafraid to speak her mind. She joined the Army Reserve as a
high school junior to earn money for college.

Family and friends showed reporters a half-dozen photos of England, including
images from her senior prom and high school graduation in 2001.

''I just wanted to make sure you guys knew she was a human being,'' Hardy told
reporters.

Well, so were the people she was torturing. Therein lies the problem, I
think.
It is my understanding, regarding earlier war situations, that In order to do
the horrible things you are required to do in normal combat, you are taught to
dehumanize the enemy. That's why they come up with names for them, that would
ordinarily be nonsense words, like "gooks." I wonder how far the training
goes? I am in no way excusing the events. Merely trying to understand. They
said she was following orders and the pictures with posed. I can't imagine
myself under any circumstances, smiling, with a cigarette hanging out of my
mouth and pointing at a hooded naked man's genitals. Or holding a leash around
a naked man's neck. Surely I would suffer a courtmarshall rather than subject
myself to the repercussions, emotional and legal, of following that order. Not
to mention the suffering those people endured. Would a commanding officer risk
the public exposure this caused by making such an order? I don't think so. I
think she and her buddies were having fun with the "non-humans."
 Laura k
 

qualis artifex pereo

Counerston

2004-05-08 22:46:57 UTC

Permalink

I've been very disturbed by this. I want to look for some other articles, but
wanted to throw this out there, This is from AOL's cover story:

England was described as a kind young woman who loves athletics and the
outdoors and is unafraid to speak her mind. She joined the Army Reserve as a
high school junior to earn money for college.

Family and friends showed reporters a half-dozen photos of England, including
images from her senior prom and high school graduation in 2001.

''I just wanted to make sure you guys knew she was a human being,'' Hardy told
reporters.

Well, so were the people she was torturing. Therein lies the problem, I
think.
It is my understanding, regarding earlier war situations, that In order to do
the horrible things you are required to do in normal combat, you are taught to
dehumanize the enemy. That's why they come up with names for them, that would
ordinarily be nonsense words, like "gooks." I wonder how far the training
goes? I am in no way excusing the events. Merely trying to understand. They
said she was following orders and the pictures with posed. I can't imagine
myself under any circumstances, smiling, with a cigarette hanging out of my
mouth and pointing at a hooded naked man's genitals. Or holding a leash around
a naked man's neck. Surely I would suffer a courtmarshall rather than subject
myself to the repercussions, emotional and legal, of following that order. Not
to mention the suffering those people endured. Would a commanding officer risk
the public exposure this caused by making such an order? I don't think so. I
think she and her buddies were having fun with the "non-humans."

Laura k
qualis artifex pereo
************************
Just some of my thoughts....................
Most of the friends and family, of those accused, are saying the same
things.........I am sure they are having a hard time believing that their loved
ones are capable of doing these things.............
All of our service men and women get the same training...........So I don't
think this can be looked at as a reason..................
England was not supposed to be there.....She was visiting her boyfriend so she
was not under any orders..............Graner, her boyfriend, has some violence
in his background.........I think this was just a "fun" date for
them..............
The CIA and Military Intelligence knew this was going on and approved and
encouraged it......I'm sure they used the same methods when it was their time
to interrogate the prisoners.............I don't think they will be held
accountable.............Their part is already being pushed off on the
contractors..............Well who hired the contractors.........
I think they should all be Court Marshaled...........on TV in
Iraq...........This would have been swept under the rug had it not been for the
pictures...........
We have only seen a few of the pictures......Some are so bad they can not be
shown on TV or newspapers................ To be really disgusted try this
link.....http://members.iinet.net.au/~sauterp/iraq/..................I must
warn you though they are not for someone with a weak stomach...........
This is not the only place this is going on..............Even the IRC said it
was widespread..............
This is doing so much harm to the rest of our service people
there...........and to us as a country..............
KC
Tonight we dance
****************

Wafna05

2004-05-21 23:12:24 UTC

Permalink

Subject: Re: The Iraqi Torturings.
From: ***@aol.commonsense (Counerston)
Date: 5/8/2004 6:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <***@mb-m04.aol.com>

I've been very disturbed by this. I want to look for some other articles, but
wanted to throw this out there, This is from AOL's cover story:

England was described as a kind young woman who loves athletics and the
outdoors and is unafraid to speak her mind. She joined the Army Reserve as a
high school junior to earn money for college.

Family and friends showed reporters a half-dozen photos of England, including
images from her senior prom and high school graduation in 2001.

''I just wanted to make sure you guys knew she was a human being,'' Hardy told
reporters.

Well, so were the people she was torturing. Therein lies the problem, I
think.
It is my understanding, regarding earlier war situations, that In order to do
the horrible things you are required to do in normal combat, you are taught to
dehumanize the enemy. That's why they come up with names for them, that would
ordinarily be nonsense words, like "gooks." I wonder how far the training
goes? I am in no way excusing the events. Merely trying to understand. They
said she was following orders and the pictures with posed. I can't imagine
myself under any circumstances, smiling, with a cigarette hanging out of my
mouth and pointing at a hooded naked man's genitals. Or holding a leash around
a naked man's neck. Surely I would suffer a courtmarshall rather than subject
myself to the repercussions, emotional and legal, of following that order. Not
to mention the suffering those people endured. Would a commanding officer risk
the public exposure this caused by making such an order? I don't think so. I
think she and her buddies were having fun with the "non-humans."

Laura k
qualis artifex pereo
************************
Just some of my thoughts....................
Most of the friends and family, of those accused, are saying the same
things.........I am sure they are having a hard time believing that their loved
ones are capable of doing these things.............
All of our service men and women get the same training...........So I don't
think this can be looked at as a reason..................
England was not supposed to be there.....She was visiting her boyfriend so she
was not under any orders..............Graner, her boyfriend, has some violence
in his background.........I think this was just a "fun" date for
them..............
The CIA and Military Intelligence knew this was going on and approved and
encouraged it......I'm sure they used the same methods when it was their time
to interrogate the prisoners.............I don't think they will be held
accountable.............Their part is already being pushed off on the
contractors..............Well who hired the contractors.........
I think they should all be Court Marshaled...........on TV in
Iraq...........This would have been swept under the rug had it not been for the
pictures...........
We have only seen a few of the pictures......Some are so bad they can not be
shown on TV or newspapers................ To be really disgusted try this
link.....http://members.iinet.net.au/~sauterp/iraq/..................I must
warn you though they are not for someone with a weak stomach...........
This is not the only place this is going on..............Even the IRC said it
was widespread..............
This is doing so much harm to the rest of our service people
there...........and to us as a country..............
KC
Tonight we dance
****************
It's very sad, all of it, that link did not work for me, KC.
I'm not sure what I would do in the same situation, I prefer to think that I
would be above such actions, however, if my boss had a reputation for violence
and a gun I might go along with what he wanted.
It's hard to say.
The soldiers were deprived themselves, they didn't have sufficient water to
clean with, they were lonely-had few recreational resources.
I'm sure that didn't help.

VENI VIDI VICI

Sally Atticum

2004-05-28 01:08:54 UTC

Permalink

''I just wanted to make sure you guys knew she was a human being,'' Hardy told
reporters.

Well, so were the people she was torturing. Therein lies the problem, I
think.
It is my understanding, regarding earlier war situations, that In order to do
the horrible things you are required to do in normal combat, you are taught to
dehumanize the enemy. That's why they come up with names for them, that would
ordinarily be nonsense words, like "gooks." I wonder how far the training
goes? I am in no way excusing the events. Merely trying to understand. They
said she was following orders and the pictures with posed. I can't imagine
myself under any circumstances, smiling, with a cigarette hanging out of my
mouth and pointing at a hooded naked man's genitals. Or holding a leash around
a naked man's neck. Surely I would suffer a courtmarshall rather than subject
myself to the repercussions, emotional and legal, of following that order. Not
to mention the suffering those people endured. Would a commanding officer risk
the public exposure this caused by making such an order? I don't think so. I
think she and her buddies were having fun with the "non-humans."

Laura k
qualis artifex pereo
************************
Just some of my thoughts....................
Most of the friends and family, of those accused, are saying the same
things.........I am sure they are having a hard time believing that their loved
ones are capable of doing these things.............
All of our service men and women get the same training...........So I don't
think this can be looked at as a reason..................
England was not supposed to be there.....She was visiting her boyfriend so she
was not under any orders..............Graner, her boyfriend, has some violence
in his background.........I think this was just a "fun" date for
them..............
The CIA and Military Intelligence knew this was going on and approved and
encouraged it......I'm sure they used the same methods when it was their time
to interrogate the prisoners.............I don't think they will be held
accountable.............Their part is already being pushed off on the
contractors..............Well who hired the contractors.........
I think they should all be Court Marshaled...........on TV in
Iraq...........This would have been swept under the rug had it not been for the
pictures...........
We have only seen a few of the pictures......Some are so bad they can not be
shown on TV or newspapers................ To be really disgusted try this
link.....http://members.iinet.net.au/~sauterp/iraq/..................I must
warn you though they are not for someone with a weak stomach...........
This is not the only place this is going on..............Even the IRC said it
was widespread..............
This is doing so much harm to the rest of our service people
there...........and to us as a country..............
KC
Tonight we dance
****************
It's very sad, all of it, that link did not work for me, KC.
I'm not sure what I would do in the same situation, I prefer to think that I
would be above such actions, however, if my boss had a reputation for violence
and a gun I might go along with what he wanted.
It's hard to say.
The soldiers were deprived themselves, they didn't have sufficient water to
clean with, they were lonely-had few recreational resources.
I'm sure that didn't help.

VENI VIDI VICI
My son called me this week from S. Korea. He asked me my opinion of the
punishments and I told him that I thought they weren't strict enough. He said
he thought that they were pretty harsh. He said they get one year in prison,
lose their jobs, no pension, a dishonorable discharge. He thought the last two
were a real big deal. I said if this were in criminal court it would be more
like 10 years. He seemed surprised.

He said the base in S. Korea that he is at is a very very strict one. He said
if you are late to work, you lose a stripe. If you are out past the 10:00
curfew, you lose a stripe. If you are caught intoxicated, you lose a stripe. He
said they don't mess around. He soooo m,isses Japan. He has had it cushie for
three years. Now he learns how the other 3/4 live.
 Laura k
 

qualis artifex pereo

Wafna05

2004-05-15 12:01:43 UTC

Permalink

Subject: The Iraqi Torturings.
From: ***@aol.compos-sui (Sally Atticum)
Date: 5/8/2004 1:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <***@mb-m26.aol.com>

I've been very disturbed by this. I want to look for some other articles, but
wanted to throw this out there, This is from AOL's cover story:

England was described as a kind young woman who loves athletics and the
outdoors and is unafraid to speak her mind. She joined the Army Reserve as a
high school junior to earn money for college.

Family and friends showed reporters a half-dozen photos of England, including
images from her senior prom and high school graduation in 2001.

''I just wanted to make sure you guys knew she was a human being,'' Hardy told
reporters.

Well, so were the people she was torturing. Therein lies the problem, I
think.
It is my understanding, regarding earlier war situations, that In order to do
the horrible things you are required to do in normal combat, you are taught to
dehumanize the enemy. That's why they come up with names for them, that would
ordinarily be nonsense words, like "gooks." I wonder how far the training
goes? I am in no way excusing the events. Merely trying to understand. They
said she was following orders and the pictures with posed. I can't imagine
myself under any circumstances, smiling, with a cigarette hanging out of my
mouth and pointing at a hooded naked man's genitals. Or holding a leash around
a naked man's neck. Surely I would suffer a courtmarshall rather than subject
myself to the repercussions, emotional and legal, of following that order. Not
to mention the suffering those people endured. Would a commanding officer risk
the public exposure this caused by making such an order? I don't think so. I
think she and her buddies were having fun with the "non-humans."

Laura k
qualis artifex pereo
=====
I don't know, Laura, I honestly think that she thought that she was doing a
good thing by torturing these guys.
They told her she was saving her fellow Americans and getting useful
information.
She doesn't strike me as the sharpest knife in the drawer-she clearly enjoyed
hurting them, but she's a follower, not a leader, and I think that her boss
should get the majority of the blame.
I don't think that she's lying.

VENI VIDI VICI

Sally Atticum

2004-05-16 16:39:14 UTC

Permalink